Have you ever grappled with the debate around counseling and medication versus faith? Today, I sat down with Courtney Quinn, a Master of Counseling graduate with a heart for Christianity. Together, we peeled back the layers of misconceptions that have long created a chasm between believers who advocate for counseling and those who shun it. Courtney shared her unique journey into counseling and how she's come to view it as a potent tool, backed by biblical wisdom, for healing and personal growth.
Are you on the fence about therapy's role in your faith journey? Courtney and I took a detailed look at the importance of finding a good counselor the role of prayer and mentorship in the healing process, and we tackled the myth that therapy is designed to be a lifelong commitment. We also considered medication's contentious role in mental health treatment and highlighted the necessity of a therapeutic plan that aligns with scriptural teachings.
Lastly, we delved into the intersection of mental health and Christianity. We pondered the impact of technology and the significance of church initiatives in mental health care. We underscored the power of community and the unique, impartial perspective a counselor can bring. To wrap it up, we reflected on the importance of immersing oneself in the word of God, the potency of spirituality, and how technology might affect mental health. So, if you've been curious about the interplay between faith and counseling, tune in for an enlightening discussion.
Have you ever grappled with the debate around counseling and medication versus faith? Today, I sat down with Courtney Quinn, a Master of Counseling graduate with a heart for Christianity. Together, we peeled back the layers of misconceptions that have long created a chasm between believers who advocate for counseling and those who shun it. Courtney shared her unique journey into counseling and how she's come to view it as a potent tool, backed by biblical wisdom, for healing and personal growth.
Are you on the fence about therapy's role in your faith journey? Courtney and I took a detailed look at the importance of finding a good counselor the role of prayer and mentorship in the healing process, and we tackled the myth that therapy is designed to be a lifelong commitment. We also considered medication's contentious role in mental health treatment and highlighted the necessity of a therapeutic plan that aligns with scriptural teachings.
Lastly, we delved into the intersection of mental health and Christianity. We pondered the impact of technology and the significance of church initiatives in mental health care. We underscored the power of community and the unique, impartial perspective a counselor can bring. To wrap it up, we reflected on the importance of immersing oneself in the word of God, the potency of spirituality, and how technology might affect mental health. So, if you've been curious about the interplay between faith and counseling, tune in for an enlightening discussion.
The point of therapy is not to stay in therapy for life. They give you antidepressants. I don't agree that that's the way to go. Here's meds so it's easier for everyone to deal with you. We want to be dependent on God, not medication. I had seen a non-Christian counselor and it wasn't very beneficial.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome back to the Y2 Fitness Podcast. I'm your host, aaron O'Connell, and today I am with Courtney Quinn. How are you doing today, courtney?
Speaker 1:I'm good how are you?
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm doing fantastic. So me and Courtney have actually known each other for years a couple years now but we haven't like physically hung out and when we talk it's just we're usually serving together in the church and it's very briefly correct. Yeah, so, and you just graduated with your masters in counseling from Palm Beach, atlanta, correct?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:How would you, how did you enjoy your time there?
Speaker 1:Oh, I loved it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. What would you say? The biggest takeaway was from it all.
Speaker 1:I would say. Something I was not expecting was how dependent counseling is on Jesus. It actually gave me more of a heart for ministry going through the schooling process.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay, so. So, just so our listeners know, palm Beach, atlanta, is a Christian school. Yes, so that's where you were able to learn counseling, all that stuff. But from that, that Christian perspective that I myself because I just got my masters as well in counseling psychological studies and counseling is what they call it but yeah it, I just knew I had to have that Christian side of things, because when you have the ultimate healer, the author of life, the, that tells us don't rely on our own thoughts, don't rely on our own feelings, our heart is wicked and just explains pretty much mental health in a nutshell, because, in sin, just put that all together and not to, but to rely on him. How can we not have counseling? Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, because I tried to disprove God for quite a while and with worldly views, counseling, self-help, everything like I got, I got to the point when I was saying stuff. I'm like, you know, back in Jesus's time, if he could just have some form of contacts and put him into people's eyes, people would say the blind saw. Wow, you know, I was like if Jesus just happened because he was, you know, god's son, you know, this is the stuff that I was saying. You know, then maybe he just knew where the sandbars were. And when you know Peter's like, hey, come out to him when he's about to walk on the water, he's like look at me. And he knew where the sandbar was. But if you've been on a sandbar, you can be just walking, just go Straight down. Like this is what I was trying to like prove, like it was trying to think. But through my disproving that was like three years long. All I realized it was just a cheap knockoff version from what was already written thousands and thousands of years ago the authority of the Bible.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:So what got you to pursue your masters in counseling, like, what was the why behind that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was actually serving at church and I had just lost a job. I was in sales for a few years and serving at church I overheard someone talking about how they got to just help people all day for their job, and this woman was also studying psychology and I just I had never thought about going back to school before. So this was totally and completely from God.
Speaker 1:I had been studying psychology just on my own for fun, for a few years and I put two and two together, I was like I can go study psychology in order to help people through counseling by going back to school, and I myself had been in counseling for about two years at the time and it was, I always say, jesus and counseling saved my life and, through our Jesus, used counseling to save my life in so many different ways.
Speaker 2:Were you seen a Christian counselor or yes, okay, it was a Christian counselor.
Speaker 2:Okay, which really just brings us to our topic today, and the topic because I saw you post a post and it started saying things like hey, there's still room for medication, even though you know the great physician, oh yeah, there's still room for counseling and still be guided by the Holy Spirit. You know there's still room for, you know, advisors, there's still room for this mental health scene and how the world is going about it. Yet there's. It doesn't contradict the Bible, it goes into it. And that's a touchy subject because just go Google it and you will see that I don't know 60, 40, 50, 50. I don't know the numbers, but you'll see that it's it were split. So what would you say one of the biggest reasons, if you could put in a nutshell first, the split, why the split happens amongst Christians that say, hey, there's no really room for it. And before we dive all in what it is in the different sections and there's room for it and versus there's no room for it what would you say? That big culprit is why there's so much division?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think just misunderstanding or not understanding how counseling is helpful and, honestly, fear and pride.
Speaker 2:Fear. And fear is a liar. Yeah, pop your song. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know. But? And also, love casts out all fear. Perfect love casts out all fear. The Bible says, and I'm a firm believer, that the opposite of love is fear and not hate. Because when you hate somebody, you're, you're pent up, you're thinking, you're consumed with them. You, you, you have an emotional tie to them that will be dictated by their actions to go up and down hate. Yeah, it's pretty close to love, it's just there's a negative connotation to it. So they're kind of closer than they think, you think. But fear is on the other side, and that's why I would say, I would agree with you, that that culprit is fear. But you have so many people that have that misconception, even that, even without the argument of whether it's a place in Christianity or not, they say, hey, it's a sign of weakness or a lack of faith in God. If they were to be, you know, seeking this professional help, what would you, what would you say to them?
Speaker 1:I would say it's the opposite of weakness, or even if it is weakness. I will not remember the Bible verse correctly, but how Paul boasts of his weaknesses. Weakness brings us to a place of humility and saying I need help, and I think a lot of people aren't willing to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, he says, I will boast about my weaknesses for God's power is made perfect in my weaknesses, so I will boast about my weaknesses evermore. And how powerful is that? Because I come from a health and fitness background. In sports, just in business, in relationships, don't we, shouldn't we not just be focusing on the good stuff and sweeping the bad stuff under?
Speaker 1:the rug.
Speaker 2:But instead looking at the bad stuff and prioritizing that and addressing it and being proactive with it, wouldn't you say that would be the proper way?
Speaker 1:to do things Absolutely.
Speaker 2:I say I would say so too. Even Proverbs 1522, it says but there is an accomplishment through many advisors. You know many counselors, that's why I said many counselors. It says in a different place so, but there's this humility, like you said, that you need to be able to say I need help. Yeah, so you said that you so seek counseling and if you don't mind, if it's too much, forgo it and we can go straight to the experience. But what was the catalyst behind that? What was the catalyst? That was, like you know what I need help Other than my friends or my family, or maybe that maybe there's a lack there of that's what built up to it. But what was that catalyst?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm happy to talk about that. I was in a place I was really, really low. I was really depressed. I felt I didn't have anyone else to go to. I felt like my family had offered as much help as they could. I didn't have the best friends surrounding me at the time, I didn't know that, but I knew I wasn't getting the help I needed and I just knew I needed something else. I wasn't exactly sure what it was and then I it was actually my dad who did recommend counseling, thank you. And he's like oh, I mean, your mom went to a Christian counselor at one point. This is who they are. Would you be interested? And I said, oh, yeah, um, and knowing it was a Christian counselor, yeah.
Speaker 1:Um, and actually I had seen a? Um, a non-Christian counselor, um, just pro bono, before that Um and it. It wasn't very beneficial, so that's when I started seeking out Christian counseling.
Speaker 2:Okay, so you, you say you were feeling depressed, or like you said prior to going to the counseling did you know why you were feeling that way, Like was there an object to your, your?
Speaker 1:thought, but I knew it was way deeper than a couple of specific things I could like pinpoint and through counseling were you then able to then explore and yes didn't go really deep into it and then be able to release it to God. That's what I think it's most helpful with is helping us find out um, or dig up the things that we can't see yet, like we know some things there. We might be able to see some of it, but we can't see all of it.
Speaker 2:And you know we, we are God's body. You know he, he's the head, we are the body and through that we, we understand that or from I think I've heard this from somewhere. It says you go to God for forgiveness, but you go to God's people for healing, because we're the body, we. You know he's the head that guides it all. But we do all the functions and Christian counseling, or you know, and even counselors in general, but just because we're just wired that way to be in community, they're the wise ones, you know, like, like so many churches aren't following the deacons and the elders and you know, and like vetting the elders out to make sure that those that are leading are standing so upright.
Speaker 2:This like it's just not there. It's, we've grown too big. Whatever it is, I'm not going to try to dive into that, I digress. But we're meant to be talking to each other and now that we have these titles of this profession, that profession, and it means so much, why wouldn't we go to the vetted out professional to say, hey, you've been a, you're further along on your walk, you're a professional counselor, you know, whatever it may be that you're seeing. Well, I think it's extremely beneficial.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know because yes, you should also talk to your friends, you should talk to your parents. You should talk to everybody and air it out. You know, I think there's a really big dogma and like nasty side of things of people saying, like airing out your dirty laundry, yeah, but I really think it's the why behind that. Why are you or airing out your dirty laundry? Do you want to get attention and just make somebody affirm your way of feeling, yeah, most of the time. Or are you genuinely trying to change? You know, and if you have that heart, that's what people will know that, and I really think that you, you get that, that feeling, you know, and now that you've been through counseling, would you consider continuing that, like if funds were not an issue?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Would you continue that for a lifetime?
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. Yes, and in fact, I planned on it.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:I am the, I think, one of the misconceptions and some counselors do abuse their authority, but the point of therapy is not to stay in therapy for life. It's to get you to a place where you don't need therapy anymore, and I think people don't realize that. They think therapists want your money.
Speaker 1:They just want to keep you there keep you sick, Like that is the opposite of what therapy is for. But yeah, I planned on staying in therapy for life and my therapist actually recently kind of kicked me out. She didn't really, but she was like you're good, Like you have to come.
Speaker 2:Well, that was like I'll be around, though that's when you go. I need a mentor, yeah, but you're in counseling now and you're now. You said you maybe, or somebody walked up to you and said hey, I have my own private practice, you can work under supervision, all that, yeah, so she would then become your mentor because she's your boss.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So essentially that would still be almost like counseling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because she's counselors always need their own counselors as well.
Speaker 2:I completely agree. You know you need that many advisors. Go look at Pastor Scott of our church, how he has so many people placed about around him. He's already said that he places barriers of passwords and people's phones and access to emails to evolve his best people, because it's good to understand that we are weak, that we need other people to hold this up. We need to understand that we need Aaron. We need uh-oh. Who held up Aaron? Oh, this is his other hand.
Speaker 1:Oh, I don't know. I just remembered Aaron, oh no.
Speaker 2:Joshua, we'll go back to it. I think it's Joshua. I think I'm good, but, but, but you know you need those people to win the war and I think it's super important for that, and that's, that's just getting into mentorship, you know. But what would you say would be the best way to vet a good counselor? Ooh, Like if you needed, if you're like okay, I'll do it, I'll do it, let me. Let me test this counselor thing out, because there's bad counselors out there.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of bad counselors out there.
Speaker 2:If you go out and Christian is a great start, but we know Christians are still humans too and they fail and people use God just for their own advantage all that stuff. But what would you say? To try to do the best to find the best counselor you possibly could, what would be, some advice that you could give the listeners.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would definitely say, of course, start out looking for a Christian counselor, ask around. I think referrals are the best way to find someone, because if you know someone that trusts them, then you already, you know, know something about them. And I would definitely say, test your counselor. Everyone's going to test their counselor, anyways, but don't you don't want to trust them the first time you see them.
Speaker 1:Do? Do they listen well? Do they talk over you? Do you feel heard by them If they mention God or something biblical? Does it actually line up? And I always pray before I go into counseling and when I was seeking out a counselor that it would be the right counselor for me Excellent. I'd say always go to God first before your counseling sessions and after, asking God what you needed from that session, and I always pray for God to show me what's from him in that session or if anything is not from him that I need to look out for. But yeah, lining, lining up with scripture in your beliefs and, I'd say, empathetic listener.
Speaker 2:Definitely, cause I was just as you were talking. I just started thinking. I'm like would it be good to maybe figure out where they go to church and attend to church with them once? Sure.
Speaker 1:Why not?
Speaker 2:I don't know if they'd let you attend church with them, but just for you to figure it out, but like hang out with each other, you know, but like vet you out a little bit, you know, like you know, because at least with like pastoral counseling when I got my degree in there's that little bit of leeway where you're not held by the law of Florida, where you can't say this and you can't do this and you're like there's that slippage, you know, with the, with the ethic code. But you, you know, I would want to see your faith in action.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, you know like the Bible says, you can identify a tree by its fruit. So, like, like you said, speaking the style is so important, but I really think it's important to really look at their spiritual walk and I think you nailed it on the head to get that, to get that, that referral. You know that's almost what I was.
Speaker 2:I was thinking like, well, the best one would be to go to their church, because that's their church family, and get the referral from their family you know, but definitely to try to, but let's, let's pivot just a little bit and get into medication because, this, this one, I think we'll be able to talk a little bit more on, get a little bit deeper, maybe an argument we'll see. I'm just joking. Maybe you never know, with this but, but.
Speaker 2:But what would your stance be Like if I could just give you the mic, you know, and say, hey, argue your stance, like you know, of four against Y, you know what. What would you say?
Speaker 1:I would say I am for, um. I'm not against medication at all, um, and I'm uh, all for medication and therapy. Um, I would not be for medication alone, just um. A lot of medications are way over prescribed. Um, nowadays, you go to the doctor and you're sad, maybe, over a situation. They give you antidepressants. Um, I don't agree that that's the way to go. I think medication plus therapy, um is.
Speaker 2:Okay, so what would it? Let's? Let's put you in the shoes of the therapist. All right, the licensed there Psychiatrists. I can't be a psychiatrist.
Speaker 1:I don't have a medical degree.
Speaker 2:I know that, but let's, let's just put you in those shoes right now. You're pretending now, okay, cause we're talking about medication here. All right, let's put you in the shoes. You're a psychiatrist. What would be the plan of attack when someone let's just say myself or whatever comes in and for something needing medication? You know, like I, let's just say ADHD, cause that's me also when, when my ADHD is not diagnosed, I then get, but I will get show signs of um, manic depression and but which is bipolar when it's not. This is what Psychiatrist has said about me back in college. Okay, so if I came in there as a Christian all that stuff, seeking medication and you know, and you recommended the counseling grade how would you program our session slash? What would be the end goal?
Speaker 1:Hmm, Well, I, I really can't speak from a place of a psychiatrist because I'm not on that side, I'm not on the clinical side.
Speaker 2:This is a hypothetical but, but this is a hypothetical but. I mean, how would you like to see medication dispense?
Speaker 1:I. I would like to see it Like the reform. I would like to see a psychiatrist say who's your therapist? Okay, and then um talk with that therapist. Compare notes that I mean that's something that is commonly done so.
Speaker 2:have you thought about the end goal, though, of these?
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, um yeah, that's what that's what I'm asking.
Speaker 2:Okay, like you're you, you get, you get your person. They come in and it's like okay, what is the end goal here? Like, what are we trying to do? Like I have a, like I here's my problems I have eight, I think I have 80. Do you? You got to screen me all these things? You realize that I fit the codes for medication, but we're also lining up with scripture. How would you do that? The best way Line up scripture with medication is what I'm trying to find out.
Speaker 1:Oh, scripture with medication.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because because we're saying you believe that medication has its place with with counseling. That does not go against scripture. So my place in saying is like how would you program, or what would a program look like? How could we even attempt it? What are things we may need to see, if anything, to be able to then say, hey, this is how it aligns with scripture, this is at least how it doesn't contradict it.
Speaker 1:Okay, Um.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I know, I don't know if I'm familiar enough with scripture.
Speaker 1:I'm probably just speaking from my own opinion.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, you can check me. The listeners will check you if you say something about why always? Check me Always check everyone.
Speaker 1:Um, but I, um, I would say my goal would be to help someone get to a place of functioning better, um, with, uh, a long-term goal of not being on medication forever and not becoming dependent on medication.
Speaker 2:That's what I was wondering here.
Speaker 1:Yes, we want to be dependent on God, not medication.
Speaker 2:So, and from your observation, is that what the current mental health scene seems to have?
Speaker 1:Probably not. No, um it. In my perspective, I see a lot of um here's meds, so it's easier for everyone to deal with you Easier for you to deal with life right now, but it doesn't really help anything underlying or moving forward just kind of keeps you stuck.
Speaker 2:Are you done Cause you can then look at it from the lens or the paradigm of the people that say, hey, it's, they're just in it for the money, big pharma. Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:So they their goal, even though the therapist doesn't know it, that you can get. Let's just what's back out of Christianity for a second, and just the therapist, the counselor, the whatever it is that, or at least with the medication. So psychiatrist, we have to go to that level and say, hey, the goal for the psychiatrist was to help the person they genuinely want to help, but if they don't have that goal, to get them off of it at the end, as the psychiatrist they then are just a pawn, no matter how much they want this is my opinion, obviously how much they want to help, because big pharma and whoever that pill is, just wants to sell more pills. They don't want you to get off them. The last thing they would want to do is cure it.
Speaker 2:There's no cure of cancer because, there's too much money in it type of ordeal, and I think that is the number one problem with mental health. Prescription pills, all that stuff is, yes, counseling with it, of course, I think. But that seems to be the debate of today of whether it should be or not. At least when I was studying just in my masters, that's a thing that's newer like, oh, will they show that? Get this much more results?
Speaker 2:When you put counseling with it, it's like, well, no, duh, yeah, obviously, but I want to see that medication where they say here's where you are. This is the goal to get you to be here without it. And these are the steps that I think we're gonna take, but I have no idea because it's gonna depend on your being able to actually follow my directions. Are you gonna do any auxiliary things? Like, hey, you can go and get on depression meds, but if you never get outside of the house with the help of those things, you have to set those goals, and it's not just medicine's mental health, I think it's diet, it's pills, it's blood pressure medication, it's the whole entire pharmaceutical thing. In general Is the biggest way that I think can go against the Bible is if you have no plan of attack and you look at it as your savior. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:You know, like the idol, Like yes, at the moment I'm using it but I won't be in Jesus's name. If you can say that statement, I think we're good, but if you're like I'm on it, and that's because I am anxious, I really would you say there's an identity behind mental that keeps people within their mental health. Yeah, definitely, and would you say that the mental health is actually a culprit of placing that misused identity?
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely can be.
Speaker 2:What would you say the negative? Any. Let me see. What am I trying to say here. What are the negative effects do you see from the past 100 years of basically people, counselors, psychologists, mental health labeling people to identify with their mental health?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, just what you said. Like what would you say that negative would be? Well then, people literally place their identity in that and they don't seek their identity in Christ or they don't. They aren't being reminded of their identity in Christ and they just get stuck in that label. They have no motivation to get out of it. It's yeah, you just get stuck there.
Speaker 2:Oh, and that's where. So did you ever let me before I speak on it? Were you ever placed on medication? Yes, are you still on medication? Yes, okay, do you have a plan to get off of it?
Speaker 1:Or a desire or, yes, desire, correct. And when I started taking it, I, from there, had a plan I'm not going to take this forever.
Speaker 2:Okay, and you have been taking steps that you're not just saying that and like no, I changed a lot in my life when I started taking them. Cool, like, because, like the way that I would look at it, like you would then have a certain date where you will step down on the dose and then see how it goes, you know, and then correct.
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm also talking with God about that too, because I don't. I mean, there have been times where I'm like, okay, I'm ready to get off, I haven't been taking them that long and I'm like, okay, but is it the right time? And then I take it to prayer with God.
Speaker 2:Of course you know not to mention any names. You know there's a church, we know the couple of somebody that had that exact prayer going through freedom and about because like she was going through like pregnancies and all that other stuff and she wanted to get off of it and just kept on giving it to God, kept on giving it to God, kept on giving it to God and like she prematurely did it per se, she thought she was ready, she didn't know it was premature and it was too much, and so she went back onto it, but then she then went to freedom again. You know, I think it was. I may be butchering the story, sorry, not mentioning names, but she then went again and that's when she finally was delivered and she no longer is on the mental health medication?
Speaker 2:I don't know what it was, but like there really is that power, but it's. Do you believe in God's power? Not, and are you allowing him to do it? Because you can believe all you want, but not allowing him to do it? You know, like I believe God can do everything, but you have to open up the door to see him do it yeah, yeah, it's like do you want to be healed?
Speaker 1:Will you let me heal you?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, like, get up and go. You know, go, split out to the fish. There always was something in the miracle that you almost had to do. You know like your faith has healed you. There's usually that prerequisite, but you know you always need to. The Bible says that you need to always be able to explain your faith. Also, it says that you need to be let your reasonableness become known to all men, and that's in Philippians 4-5. So when you're going on this medication, you can't sit there. You get diagnosed with anxiety, depression. Go talk to it with your friends, your church, I think, and say, hey, I'm this, I'm depressed, I'm depressed, I'm this, I'm this, and start away with it. If you have a good Christian family around you, what are they gonna do?
Speaker 1:They're gonna say no, you are not, that you are currently struggling with symptoms of this.
Speaker 2:Correct and what? But what would you do then to instill what would you say the proper identity would be?
Speaker 1:Oh, my, my Important no, that's okay.
Speaker 2:Our identity in Christ. I'll give you that yes, so. Where would you then say like, hey, you got this like what you work with the high schoolers. Yes, let's put a scenario in there. All right, you got a girl that's coming to you and she's only been there for a couple months, month or two. You kind of built some report with her and now she finally opens up and she goes well, I'm on medication and.
Speaker 2:I'm severely depressed. I have ADD, you know, and I'm, and I have anxiety. I'm just a very anxious person. I'm a depressed person. That's just the way I am. What would you start? How would you breathe life in there?
Speaker 1:I would first Say I'm so sorry that you're struggling with those things. I would ask more about that, what it feels like, and then I would encourage her or ask her if she knows who she is in Christ. That she, if she knows she's a child of God, which means he loves her as a daughter, he wants to take care of her, he's going to take care of her, he's going to bring her healing if she'll accept it and he doesn't want her to place her identity in all of these labels.
Speaker 2:It goes into like, because the world likes to call it. Affirmations Like don't get me wrong, that's what they are, but you can just have a. Loose affirmations like I am pretty, I am pretty, I am pretty. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like is it true yet?
Speaker 2:Exactly like I am rich. I am rich, you know, like. No, give their Undoubtable reasons why and proof that you are that thing and you will end up believing it. You know like I think I said something on my threads just the other day. That was like you have to become it before you. You have to become it before you are it. Yeah you know, or something like that. It was along those lines. I just butchered my own but but yeah, you have to do the things before, like there's so many people that say I want to be a YouTuber, but they're not making YouTube.
Speaker 2:But that would just be the life wanted, but they're not doing you to. You know, whatever it is, it's even like and I think that's the problem, even behind colleges we're just so programmed to go into it. We're like back then. It's like no, the person with the astronomy books and the telescope that was a thousand dollars and all that stuff went to to get the masters in astronomy. Now it's just like what's cool, you know, and that'd be your story too, because you went. How long were you out of school?
Speaker 1:I was out of school for 10 years.
Speaker 2:And what did you graduate with?
Speaker 1:my bachelor's. You mean Graphic design graphic design.
Speaker 2:Okay, which makes sense because you are an amazing artist.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you.
Speaker 2:You know I put a plug in right now like we'll do it again later on on the episode. But like, pause this podcast. I can't believe I'm saying this. Pause this podcast and go check out her art, like on her page. So like put, where can they find you? Like your art.
Speaker 1:It's at Courtney Quinn on Instagram.
Speaker 2:Q U I and.
Speaker 1:Yes, correct.
Speaker 2:Yes to ends? Oh, of course you. You paint on jackets that I see you. You do big, big, oh, big, oh. Canvases, smaller canvases. I'm sure you do so much more that you know what what. Where do you usually get that inspiration from?
Speaker 1:God, yeah, yeah, I. I cannot Do my artwork without spending time with God.
Speaker 2:So like, walk me through it, like how does an inspiration come all of a sudden, like okay, you're just in prayer, you're in Bible, and like the image appears, or is it a word that then you have to creatively go with it in prayer, I go this a concept and I think in my earlier, as my painting was developing, I Think it came a lot through life experience and then time and prayer things I was going through that I've never really been great at expressing my emotions verbally or just outwardly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think a lot of that comes out in my paintings and, yeah, like God has really helped me express myself that way and yeah, so I come up with a concept and then Just whatever I'm reading at the time in scripture, devotional, whatever sermon I'm listening to, god speaks to me through something, and then it has a Spiritual meaning as well. Like one of my paintings represents spiritual warfare I was going through and what that felt like. I, the first time pastor junior spoke at church, he said something like your life isn't falling apart, it's falling into place. Trust, yeah, trust, god, have a painting representing that and yeah, all the I have some roses that represent death to life and that's like my whole testimony with Jesus.
Speaker 2:So how important, would you say I, having a form of expression of self is in mental health so important, why I Mean kind of.
Speaker 1:I just can use myself as an example. I didn't know how to express my emotions and I didn't even realize that's how God was helping me express my emotions through painting, until looking back on them later, which was even cooler. Yeah, but it's really helpful, especially if Someone isn't able to express themselves in the ways that looks normal, as in verbalizing and naming like their feelings. That would be it's too it or it's too much to keep that inside. We have to, you know, get them out at some point.
Speaker 2:Well, because we know that God gives us all Talents like our spiritual gifts.
Speaker 2:But he also, in addition to the spiritual gifts, he gives us talent, he gives us desires, he gives us hobbies, things that we enjoy. In like that we are supposed to take pleasure with him and with my experience, with my bouts of depression that I'd still Battle to this day. You know that go up and down, but there's a season for everything. I just look at that Bible verse and go there's a season for everything. What do you want me to learn? Like, like, there's a darn prophet that laid on his side for a whole year.
Speaker 2:You know, I always in the person that butchers names, but I'm usually get him right too.
Speaker 2:So let's try this one again. This is Ezekiel. Okay, I'm pretty sure you see Son of man go and lay on your side for a whole year and only eat like this, that is cooked in cow dung or in human human feces and Blank, and then and then for the next year you're gonna roll over on your side and whatever, and he's like yo Don't, don't make me eat, oh, food cooked on my own human feces. Like at least give me something like good. Like I've never done something, like he's like all right, you can cook it on like something. I think it was like human dung or something like that. I mean, I'm not.
Speaker 2:I mean not human, I'm like I'm cow dung or whatever.
Speaker 2:So it's like, all right, a little bit better for you like this is in the bible, you know, and he just laid there and for a whole year to signify like something that was going on in Israel.
Speaker 2:Wow, so like this is a prophet of God. So when I'm in those areas, when I'm in those times, I always try to remind myself what is the why behind this? What is, what is the purpose behind this? Why am I struggling? And the more that I'm learning to do that, the the less longer my depression bouts are, the the more I'm willing to boast about the weakness that I'm going to to talk to, about to other people like my, my, my guy friends know I'll go from loud and talking in the power to like I don't talk in the chat. It's just how it is. That's called manic depressive. But they, they say that back in, or back in like Chinese times, the people that were bipolar and dealing with a lot of mental issues usually got put into the church because they were that's right yeah because they were more keen to see what was going on in the spiritual realm and what really mattered, and saw things from the macro version.
Speaker 2:And I really think that's what's happening with the advancements of technology. Is you're getting all these people starting to see so much more of the macro version of this world too fast tower of babel type thing, when we're only meant for a small amount of community and area and only what's kind of like in front of our face and like it's usually people like me or like people that are not putting myself in a glorious group, that, like you're either insane and crazy or you happen to be like a changer. You know one or the other. You know there's, there's those spectrums that you have to navigate and if you don't navigate it and do act on it and express it in the way that you have been called, you usually are the person that's depressed by poor and, like you're severely depressed you are.
Speaker 2:You go and say you are the alcoholic, because that's what it turns into a lot of mental health yeah goes untreated and I think that mental health issue, the calling, is that God's shaped hole in our hearts, reaching out for it but filling it with everything else. And yes, counseling has come in, excuse me, has come in and tries to explain it without the bible, though it still leaves them like, just like a temporary yes yeah, without the bible.
Speaker 1:That's what I found through school and it wasn't even directly taught. That's just what I was finding through studying, counseling, that everything that led to relying on Jesus like had an answer it. It was helpful but, anything that wasn't or didn't have a foundation of Jesus and lead to Jesus. It was just like you'd need to be doing it forever. It didn't have a real like end, exactly yeah, it was just like a cheap fix yeah there's a bible verse.
Speaker 2:I don't know the exact the where it's located, but it says you act godly but deny the very power that could save you with your pious rituals. That's what it's talking about and your and your or your pious self-denial and your rituals is what it says like, but you deny the power that can actually save you. And that's what I am doing with with why? To fitness. That's why I'm doing with this podcast, because without God it can be all right, yet still be wrong yeah it can still be that classic Adam and Eve.
Speaker 2:It was right to be like, want to be more like God, but it was wrong to do it with those motives. You know the motives of I think God's a liar and he's holding back on me and I want it instead of I want to be more like him and follow him and actually be with him. Yeah, same action, same desire, two different wise. Yeah, that's a great example, you know. So, with that I that's why I do and why we're here today, because it's just it's. We've gotten to the point where we're arguing in this mental health where it's like you see it all the time, like, don't you feel bad for the people that get called out by quote unquote Christians that mental health is with or that medication is witchcraft? Oh my gosh, can you speak on your hatred or your dislike? Not hatred, strong word but yeah, just like yeah um, that's just.
Speaker 1:That's so wrong. And I just I like to think, if I question if something's right or wrong or I'm not sure, or I just think about, is that helping that person or is it not? That's not helpful. That's not helpful to say even as simple as medication is bad for you and that means you don't trust God.
Speaker 2:That's not helpful that's that doesn't lead someone back to depending on God no, I agree, I agree and actually when I was driving over here, I got something that was written that I was amazing and it was. It's not what you walked through, it was who you were plugged into. Because so many, so much mental health is being talked about, these kids on the iPods, too much stimulation. They are having too much of this, too much of that. This is the cause of that ADD and all these things. I take medication, all these things. Whatever, whatever the path. They keep talking about the path, the method, the patterns of this world.
Speaker 2:But we are not to copy the patterns of this world. Instead, we're transformed by the renewing of our mind and we see it all the time. We see people smoking cigarettes till they're 99 and it's usually that bad and bad and po don't backwoods guy that needs his mall ball red because that keeps him stress less, stressing less. A better person per se, where the other one's like I need that cigarette is the one thing that calms me down. Totally different mentality, the why behind it, and we need to understand that there's going to be a hundred kids that all raised up watching a hundred hours of iPad a week, but there's going to be one that was a genius, and one that was dumb, and one was a murderer, and one was this and and we and then we're all into statistics and all these other things, but it's not about what they were physically doing at that moment or what they're looking at and not even what they're looking at.
Speaker 2:It's. Who are they plugged into? I can. It would be the difference of you got one kid going to the school that has to go see the drag queen come in and say some things, versus another. They both were exposed. One talks, sees Drake concerts and brings the kid with it whatever parent. The other one goes to church and goes to journey worship night tonight. You know, whatever you know, they're plugged into the source. So when they go and see it and walk through the same thing, one goes this doesn't line up. One goes this is interesting. Who are you plugged into?
Speaker 2:yeah, I can go be exposed to all this war, but if I'm plugged into God, giving to God giving and casting my cares on to him every single day of war, versus the guy that goes I'm doing this to be something, because this is my identity. I'm a killer, I'm an army soldier, this is all I am yeah you walked and did the same thing, but was what determined was who you plugged into, what was the why behind it?
Speaker 2:yeah and I think that is what really comes into medication, whether it actually being witchcraft or not, because you got to understand anti-christ is going to come and looking like Christ, doing major miracles when when that day comes.
Speaker 2:And that's what kind of and trust me, there's already been many anti-christ today. Jesus said so. Now there's been a lot more when you're not plugged into the source, even your amazing helping desire is gonna go and be like a witchcraft potion, because you put your desire and your worth into that, not to God. The why behind it was completely wrong, because the devil does not just want to kill you physically in the body right now. He wants to kill your spirit, and he's not against morals and people helping other people out. He just doesn't want you to know about Jesus Christ and lead the authority of Jesus Christ out.
Speaker 2:So what he does is he says okay, let's help you, let's get you here, let's do all these things. Really, jesus, out of this, because if you can be the master of your own thing, if you can just eat that tree of knowledge, you'll be good. And that's the lie that, I think, determines it.
Speaker 2:Yeah that's good. At least, that's what was placed on my heart for this podcast. Yeah, that's good. So what would you say the future of Christian counseling should look like? If you, with all of this technology, all of this accessible things, what would you, how would you like to see the future of mental health and Christianity? This is more of a jealous question for myself, but, to go like, what type of innovation, what type of programs, what type of connections would you like to see?
Speaker 1:Oh man, I mean, first of all, I would like to see it more normalized, and I think it's becoming that. I hear a lot of pastors talking about counseling in sermons now and opening up that they they see counselors. So I think that's great, more normalized and just put to use more, and I would love for it to be viewed as like a lot of people that become counselors, and especially Christian counselors, are gifted in certain ways from.
Speaker 1:God. God has given them specific gifts, gifts of empathy and listening, encouragement, and that's how they use these gifts, and people are able to, you know, depend on God through that. Normal counseling not non-Christian counseling is a lot about autonomy and independence, whereas Christian counseling is, or at least should be, about independence outside of therapy and therapist, interdependence within community and dependence on God.
Speaker 2:And yeah, I like what you put that Well, that right there is. Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 1:I think that should be more out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, and the reason I asked that is because I have this just because I don't like and Matt Tumas and I have spoken about this in the past podcast that we, the great commission, we were so great at being able to get people to get saved and say the prayer but the discipleship afterwards is where we lack and that's been on my heart a lot lately and really spreading the news.
Speaker 2:That's why I'm doing this gospel or this podcast to spread the gospel, to spread the news in as many ways as I can. But I was thinking about how counseling, how it could be better. You know, and I really wish that churches would have a higher initiative in the doctoral department per se, you know, the health department, not only fitness that's what I'm doing, obviously but health, mental health, the big portion where they would partner and vet more Christian counselors. That'd be more part of a process, you know what, and maybe be able to give it for free, a lot more than just one. Like because pastors do that, their pastoral counselors and they do counseling sessions, but it's very rare do they have one on staff that you can just go see and have a session all the time? Probably not at all.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I haven't seen it. You know, like here and there, one here, but like on a routine basis to have like a rehabilitation program. You know, like I know they have like an addiction, like all the, all the recovery churches. They have the steps and it's helping them so much within the addiction world and they're focusing so much on the mental health there that if we could take that success model because recovery church is booming with junior, you know, and so all the people we know what if the church would be able to act a little bit more like recovery church and understand that there's this need that isn't really being addressed, because that's why we're here about how do we navigate mental health. You know that we could take a firm stance, you know, or whatever it may be, or, you know, work it out with each person, discuss whatever it is, but I think if we could get that church you know, I'm so glad you said that I have.
Speaker 1:I totally forgot about it until you brought it up. That was my exact hope for counseling and the church in the future. I've actually I have a few friends that I've talked with that I literally have notes in my phone about how we wanted to start something like that like a rehabilitation program, and in the way you explained it it's even like a discipleship program in a way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they just go hand in hand, yeah they go hand in hand 100%, like I'm just looking at that in all different areas is because, yes, who is the sun sets free is free indeed, but it's every single day you need to walk in that freedom and choose to walk in that freedom and we need those people around us and some people do need extra care.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah you know I would love to have that available to them. I'm not sure if that already exists somewhere in our church, or yeah, I'm exactly.
Speaker 2:I'm not trying to like speak negative of anybody you know, it's just that's what I would like to see that there is not just like that private Christian counselor over there that just happened to knows to go to our church. No, it's like they have a pride. Our church is actively trying to fund their business in a way of like some certain way to help people out but also holds them accountable to someone to walk with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, walk with the counselor, but the counselor walks with. It's just almost like an elder base really taking under the wing the least of these. You know that need the help and, yes, this will take resources but, like you know, the resources are there. How much millions of dollars that are going away to medication that, if we put it in through the church and we're able to get people try to be off? Yeah, you know, I don't know if we're just speaking of a utopia, because we know how the world ends it's just gonna get worse and more chaotic. And we're talking about, like, fixing everything we gotta bring God's kingdom here on earth.
Speaker 2:For sure, for sure. But so how would you go about like just closing up and starting to close up, common ways to strike that balance between faith and seeking professional help and like or and like positive medication, like, how do you strike that balance? What would be the key takeaways to be able to go forward with that? So you, you're not sitting here going, I don't want to go see it, because then, if I do, I'm going down this rabbit hole of I don't believe in God to heal me and all that stuff like how can you, what would you say your take?
Speaker 1:key points would be to strike that balance yeah, I would say to view counseling in the perspective of this is a tool that God uses in people's lives. Maybe not everyone is called to be helped in that way, but a lot of people are.
Speaker 2:He uses people all the time to work through them in healing others oh, that's okay, right at the end, with these little, these beep, beep yeah, it's just another tool that is helpful in finding healing and helping you depend on God more.
Speaker 1:I know it was really helpful for me in that way because I was. I was just so stuck in my head I couldn't get out of my head in order to focus on God, so there's a blockage there.
Speaker 2:This is a tool to help remove blockages and I think it just speeds up the process it does it really does.
Speaker 2:I'm, I am to a fault and it's my painful. You know why I am who I am. But hey, now I can reframe, saying I was this person for a reason. But I've painfully tried to do everything by myself my whole entire life and it's the reason why I have felt in the past I still kind of do but giving it to God. And give it to God that I'm behind, you know, because I am thankful for these things and now that I can give myself the grace, now that I've been walking through because there you can figure it out by yourself you're really genuinely seeking.
Speaker 2:But it's so much easier when you put the people around you. And, yes, you can have friends, but I have great friends and they let me down all the time. I let them with that on all the time. I get yelled at hey, you know, you could just give me a call back like it's common courtesy, but like not giving it back for two days, dude, I got yelled at just the other day for that and like, but like I was like hey, man, I totally get it. Like, if this is important to you, I'll do that and I will forever do that because I care for him, but I may still do it to somebody else, because we all are figuring this thing out.
Speaker 2:But we need that consistency If we can get people to believe, because it's let's be real many are not gonna make it into the kingdom. Many people are just putting on Christian face and there isn't that much genuine love, unfortunately. That's why I'm here. I'm trying to change that. That's why you do what you do. Love just needs to keep increasing. But when you get to go to that therapist, you form that bond, you get that love. Whether they really did or not, they at least act like it, like you get to feel that love. They care more about you than you almost care about yourself.
Speaker 2:That's a good therapist, because you're crazy, you're walking in there with problems whatever and you're trying to figure it out. This person, when you're gonna derail that, like you normally do, is gonna care for you and provide the way out, and that's what we need more of. That's a stronger Christian. That's what a real friend is, but that's what maybe just some people don't have real friends, a lot of us don't. And that's where a therapist comes in. That's God saying here's somebody right here for you.
Speaker 2:And I gave you the internet to search them. I gave you credentials in the phone to vet them. I gave you all of this stuff. Like don't worry about it. Like we know that even Paul was saying to Timothy like hey, drink a little wine for your stomach. Like they'd you know. Like it's cool, go see a doctor. Like Luke was a doctor. Like it's not against it. It's more about that. Why, behind it of why are you doing it? What is going on? And just constantly searching it Like search for it, search and you will find Open, and the door will be open to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah and oh. I was gonna add something you brought up the friends I a couple of things I would say also that are different about counselors. Friends and family will always have a natural bias, so they're going to give you advice based on, they're always going to be for you, on your side. Counselors, don't take sides. And counselors also don't give advice and they also have an education. Their opinions and advice, or their opinions and perspectives, aren't based on just their own experience, which is what your family and friends have to offer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cause I truly believe if the church operated like it did in the church of acts and really operated like that, the counselors would be built in. They're called elders, they help the people walk behind, walk along. There's built in mentors and if we really got rid of the people like the sin when it was out, we confronted them with one person silently, and then this and brought the elders and really worked how it would be. The counseling would be taken care of, the mental health would be, taken care of, because you have somebody that truly cares.
Speaker 2:But, even though it's deteriorated a bit. There are churches out there, our church especially, but there are a lot of churches out there that are combating. If you don't have the power, like I, just want to just urge people to take the proactive steps. And maybe it's not counseling right away for you, maybe it's not therapy or whatever, maybe it's just a small group and diving into your church, maybe it's just showing up to church for the first time and not just watching it online, putting yourself into more interaction with people. But if you don't have the funds for counseling or whatever it is, or you can't find one, but you have access to small groups, yes, you may get some bad advice, but you'll realize it's bad because it'll be contradicted with the good advice right there and there'll be a genuine discussion.
Speaker 2:But I think that would be a good proactive step for people to start off with, to go into these small groups, because at least you get to enter it with the assumption that everyone's a Christian and everyone wants to help everyone grow. And if somebody isn't, you then usually have a person above them, a group leader above them, that you can talk to and figure that out. And as long as we're not being offended and we're unoffendable and our identities in Christ. We don't put too much power in that person. I think that's a great first step to get into things is that group?
Speaker 2:Because, like you said, you found it in ways of painting. For someone, it might just be going and joining a kickball league and you get a bunch of group of guys that you just get it all off your chest Because, whatever it may be, it's just. It's usually about talking more, communicating more, and you said it best in the beginning Boast about your weakness, because God's power is made perfect in weakness. So is there anything else you would like to leave the listeners with as we go? Any parting words of wisdom?
Speaker 1:Man, I don't think so. Now that I'm put on the spot board, I don't think so.
Speaker 2:Read your Bible, folks.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Ha, ha, ha ha. There's power in the word. There sure is. Ha, ha, ha ha. There you go. Well, thank you just so much for joining with me, courtney. Again, let everyone know where to find you. You said Instagram was.
Speaker 1:Courtney Quinn.
Speaker 2:C-O-U-R-T-N-E-Y Quinn Q-U-I-N-N. At Instagram no others that you do Facebooks or anything like that.
Speaker 1:I have just Instagram. I can handle all the other.
Speaker 2:Instagram it is. So if you want to check out that art, I highly suggest it. Check that out. If you have any questions with her, you want to just follow her. Whatever it may be, you know where to find her. And just again, thank you so much for being on this podcast.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2:Oh, it was a pleasure, thanks.